Marie D. Jones is a New Thought/Metaphysics minister with a master’s degree in metaphysical studies and an extensive background in metaphysics, spiritual studies, and the paranormal. She’s been involved with these fields in one way or another for most of her life, which led to a fascination with quantum physics and the writing of her popular and highly regarded book, PSIence: How New Discoveries In Quantum Physics and New Science May Explain the Existence of Paranormal Phenomena. Marie is also the author of 2013: End of Days or a New Beginning-Envisioning the World After the Events of 2012, which features essays from some of today’s leading thinkers and cutting-edge researchers.



She is now a widely published author, with hundreds of credits to her name, of books, magazine articles, essays, online ezines, newspapers and anthologies, including five Chicken Soup for the Soul books. She’s also been interviewed on over 100 radio talk shows all over the world and in dozens of newspapers, magazines and online publications.



Marie spent 15 years as a field investigator for the Mutual UFO Network in Los Angeles and San Diego, and currently serves as Director of Special Projects to ARPAST, the Arkansas Paranormal and Anomalous Studies Team.

MARIE JONES: Thank you. I’m pleased to be here.



RIC THOMPSON: I think it’s going to be a lot of fun, I think, today. You’ve got a fantastic book in 2013: Envisioning the World After the Events of 2012. Listeners, I think you should go and pick it up. In my opinion, you’ve done probably the best job out there of covering all the different topics that people are talking about in the 2012 arena.



MARIE JONES: That was my intention. I wanted to be sort of one-stop shopping for anyone who didn’t know a whole lot about 2012, but also for people who did but weren’t quite aware of some of the more realistic challenges that we’re facing as we lead up to that year.



RIC THOMPSON: Part of what makes the book really fascinating is Marie doesn’t just give you the generic stuff. As we’ve done here on the interview series, she really digs into a lot of different things. Some of it’s pretty mainstream, some of it’s pretty far out there, but she covers it all. It’s a great, great approach for you to explore what else is out there. Marie, let me ask you this.



Obviously, you covered a lot of ground in the book. What are some of the more outstanding trends as we approach this 2012 timeframe that really stand out for you from your research?



MARIE JONES: When we look at things that are happening today, I think it’s really easy to see where we’re headed and what our big challenges are going to be, and these are some of the things that seem to be leading up to a very cyclical change, a transformative time. However, it’s not necessarily going to be a smooth time. I think if we look at what’s going on with the global economy, we can see in the lifestyle that people have been leading in the wealthy nations that the paradigm is definitely changing from ‘me’ to ‘we’.



We are looking at simplification, people having to cut down on things that were luxuries and really taking a good look at how they’re living. Are they living beyond their means? Is it making them happy? That’s probably the biggest thing we face. The global climate change is possibly even bigger, but not on as many people’s minds because it doesn’t affect your day-to-day life the way your pocketbook does.



We’re seeing a lot of the effects of global climate change in the Pacific Islands and far off places where things are definitely changing. It’s sort of a harbinger for what’s going to be coming for the rest of us. Another big one is to look at what’s going on with swine flu. A lot of people will say, “It’s not as bad as they said it was,” but we have to realize that this is an epidemic that was sprung on us very quickly.



It was not in the news one day and then in the news the next, and that’s what happens with infectious disease. We have forgotten what a threat that is. The more of a global economy we have, the more we’re going to be facing possible pandemics. This is because people travel more; they do more business in other countries. People are going away on vacations, so the spread of infectious disease becomes an even bigger threat. Of course, it also leads to the possible threat of bioterrorism. Those are three major challenges.



Probably the fourth is our health. Obesity in America is becoming a major, major issue even with children. We have diseases related to stress that are skyrocketing: autoimmune diseases in young women, heart disease, and different types of cancers. These are challenges that we’re facing now that are only going to escalate as we head into 2012. Do they have anything to do with the Mayan calendar? We don’t know. Perhaps the Maya were able to see that this is going to be a time of great resistance and great change.



RIC THOMPSON: That’s a great point. You start your book itself off with the Mayan calendar, the 2012 dateline.



MARIE JONES: Right.



RIC THOMPSON: You also mention the debate between what that date is. Is it really December 21, 2012, or is it, as Dr. Calleman’s research shows, October 28, 2011?



MARIE JONES: Then there’s another camp that suggests it’s December 23, 2012. Then you have a lot of experts in the academic world, a lot of Mesoamerican experts, who are saying that none of this matters, none of it means anything. This was a cyclical calendar that ended and then was adjusted back to zero and began again, much like the calendars that we have, perpetual calendars especially. If we can’t agree on the end date, we have to really take a look at how much of this is open to modern interpretation.



We don’t know exactly what the Maya were trying to tell us when they ended this calendar on this particular date. There is some proof that they have dates on some of their stelae that go beyond 2012. Symbolically, this has become huge. It’s almost like mythology of our time. Every era has their own mythology, and 2012 may be the mythology of modern day.



RIC THOMPSON: That’s a great point. In your research, as you mentioned, a lot of people debate about the dates, and a lot of people are talking about what actually is going to happen. Where’s the bridge? What are the conversations that people are having on why these transitions will be occurring, why we’re seeing these trends?



MARIE JONES: A lot of what’s being discussed, again, is the I-word, ‘interpretation’, and this is where we have to be a little careful because everybody has a different spin on what they think these cycles meant. The interesting thing is that the Mayan calendar does align with a lot of other religious timelines that have a cycle that ends around the same time.



It’s really interesting to me to know that the Hindu have their yugas, and we’ve got the Age of Aquarius. We have all these different timelines. Even among the Native Americans many of the tribes believe that this is the end of one particular cycle and the beginning of another. Thus, something is going on, but for anybody to say, “Absolutely, this is what’s going to happen on that day,” I think is impossible.



We seem to have been divided into two different camps. You’ve got one camp that believes that it’s going to be Armageddon, and we’re feeding into that apocalyptic vision that really comes from the Western religious traditions. We have a movie coming out-I think it’s in November-with John Cusack called “2012.” From what I hear, it’s all doom and gloom.



We’ve got that negative side to the whole 2012 enigma that is being fed into by the Western religious traditions, which have nothing to do with the 2012 end date. What they’ve basically done is hijacked the Mayan calendar end date and turned it into their new millennium date. In Y2K, nothing happened, and that was the millennium. Now what you have is the apocalyptic crowd sort of hijacking 2012 as their new millennium date.



On the other side you’ve got a lot of people who believe that this is a time of transformation and that it’s the end of the a darker, more resistant cycle, which we can all say is pretty much happening; just look at the news headlines. We’re moving into a much lighter period of more awareness, more consciousness being raised on a global level. Certainly, a lot of individuals are feeling as though something is happening in their own lives.



They’re being challenged. They’re being changed. They’re being forced to transform. You’ve got the positive and the negative, the dark and the light, and I think duality is just a part of our nature.



RIC THOMPSON: I think the question on the very front of your book sums it all up. Everybody can picture the book, 2013: Envisioning the World After the Events of 2012. The question is: The end of days or a new beginning?



MARIE JONES: Exactly. Which one? Unfortunately, we’re not going to know until that year because we don’t know if Carl Johan Calleman’s research is right. He’s got a lot of really solid research to back up his end date, which happens the year before. Around that time I think we’re all feeling that time seems to be accelerating. We seem to be hurtling toward something. A lot of people are afraid, but a lot of people are also excited. It’s probably got bits and pieces of both the negative and the positive to it.



RIC THOMPSON: What are some of the things that surprised you in your research, as you went through and researched the 2012 phenomenon?



MARIE JONES: I hate to pour cold water on a lot of people, but one of the things that really shocked me was how little evidence there is for the December 21, 2012 end-date timeline. Again, in the Mayan culture, in their art, in their architecture, in their carvings, there’s very little to indicate that this was a date that meant the end of the world. In fact, there’s nothing to indicate that. There is a lot of information that shows that the Maya had the ability to predict cosmological and astronomical events: eclipses and alignments of planets.



December 21, 2012 does correspond with what’s called a galactic alignment. This is simply when the winter solstice sun will pass through the galactic equator of the Milky Way. It doesn’t mean it’s going to pass through the center of the Milky Way, because there’s probably a black hole there and we would all die. It’s more of a visual, a symbolic event. It meant a lot to the Maya because it represented the tree of life to them.



The problem is that we’ve had galactic alignments every 6,000 or so years and we’re still here, so you’ve got a lot of people saying, “When this happens the tides are going to be pulled out of whack, and the electromagnetic field is going to become distorted, and all this stuff is going to happen.” We’ve had these before. Again, this was a symbolic astronomical event.



It does happen, it’s happened before, but it has not lead to the end of civilization. You still have to wonder, though, how they had such advanced knowledge. I think what shocked me the most was how much emphasis people are putting on the 2012 end date when, in fact, what we should be focusing on is how the heck this ancient civilization had so much advanced knowledge? Where did they get it?



Who did they get it from? It shocked me how much of the Western religious mindset has infected society. You’ve got so many people out there who, the minute you say ‘2012’, say, “Oh, my gosh! I’m moving to the hills,” or “There’s going to be nuclear war and a super volcano, and the world’s going to end.” Those are probably the two big things.



RIC THOMPSON: Play with me here for just a minute. In your research, what would you say are the two most extreme ends of the spectrum? You’ve covered a wide range, but what’s the most joyful, happy outcome and what is just the darkest, grimmest outcome that you’ve seen?



MARIE JONES: That’s a really good question. Let’s start with the dark one; we can end on the light that way. The darkest, grimmest outcome is the Armageddon of the Judeo-Christian belief system where humans are literally wiped out of existence and the good people are raptured off the planet; that kind of thing. We’re talking about some cataclysmic chain of events: a super-volcanic eruption, a nuclear explosion, an asteroid hitting the Earth.



In order to destroy the almost seven billion people on the planet, you’re going to need more than one catastrophe to occur. The absolute darkest scenario would be plague, famine, natural disaster upon natural disaster, just an all out cleansing of the human species with just the ‘good’ people either being taken somewhere better or remaining here to start the Golden Era.



You have to ask yourself who’s going to judge who’s good and who’s not, but that gets into religious territory. That’s the darkest scenario. The lightest scenario that I found was that there are people who believe that our junk DNA-the 96% to 97% of our DNA that we are just now learning the functionality of-will awaken on December 21, 2012, and that we will all be transformed to higher beings, higher levels of consciousness, en mass.



It will almost be like millions of people on the planet will just vanish, because they will become higher beings. Those who are not ready will remain behind. Those are the two extremes. In between those you have everything from aliens coming to assist us or to destroy us, every natural disaster you can imagine, the reappearance of Christ, an Avatar, the anti-Christ.



You’ve got all of this mythology that’s taken from all of these religions and other traditions that’s been thrown into the mix. Those, I would say, would be the two extremes. Either we’re all going to die, or the vast majority of us are going to be lifted up in consciousness, almost to an angelic status where we no longer have any need for this world.



RIC THOMPSON: If someone were to put you on the spot, where would you come down on the spectrum?



MARIE JONES: In the middle, and here’s why. I see things that are happening today that are going to lead to some very big challenges. We’re going to have natural disasters. We’re going to have some this year, we’re going to have some next year, we’re going to have some in 2012, and every year after that. I see geopolitical shifts and challenges that could erupt into war at any time. I also see a large number of people really starting to work with consciousness, with intention.



We’ve got things like “The Secret” and “What the Bleep Do We Know?” to really thank for aligning a lot of people with where they need to be if they do want to make this transformation. I believe that on 2012 people who have been thinking about that day a lot, people who have been thinking about that year and what it means to them, they will experience some kind of transformation.



If you have enough people with that expectation, it will have a result. Now, the question is, do you have enough people with a positive expectation or do you have enough people with a negative? Which one will override the other? For me, I feel in the middle. I feel like there are going to be big challenges that I’m going to have to face not just as an individual, but as a member of the global society.



I also feel because of my research and my constant quest to be moving forward with awareness and consciousness, that yes, I may experience something wonderful that year simply because I expect to.



RIC THOMPSON: That’s a fascinating point. A lot of the experts we’ve talked with here in the series have talked about this concept, basically, of free will and it making the largest impact of all.



MARIE JONES: Yes, this is something I’ve questioned since I was a kid: free will versus destiny. Do we have a blueprint for our lives? Is this all random? I think it’s a little bit of both. I do feel like we all have a great destiny, but it’s up to us to choose whether or not we want to follow that path. I think if you look at the world today, there’s so much misery in it, whether it’s disease, depression, anxiety, violence, and the economic collapse. A lot of this comes from the very fundamental fact that we’re so out of touch with who we really are.



Perhaps, the Maya may have known that at this time we were going to be backed into a corner. With all of the challenges that we’re facing and that are in the news headlines every day, we as a species and also just as individuals were going to be backed into a corner and be asked, “Are you willing to make a stand, or are you just going to continue to live the way you’ve been living?”



I really believe if we all continue to go the way we’ve been going, we’re going to go down the drain. This is a really challenging time for everyone. We either rise to the occasion or we sink. It’s like sink or swim.



RIC THOMPSON: Is that why you focused your book on 2013, after the point where people have made their decision?



MARIE JONES: Right. I think human beings can survive anything. We can have nuclear war, we can have asteroid impact, and there are going to be people who survive. The species will continue on. It is just too hard to get rid of us now. We’re not as bad as cockroaches, but there are so many of us. We have resourcefulness and we have resilience. The problem is that we also become very fearful and very weak when things happen, when challenges occur.



We saw this with September 11. We saw this with all of the natural disasters that have occurred. People will pull together, but if there is enough fear involved they will also turn on each other. Again, I think that there are a lot of challenges that are going to be presented to us. We’re each going to be individually asked to rise to the occasion and come out stronger than we were before or continue to live in fear and anxiety the way we were.



Yes, I do see 2013, and I see 2020, but what kind of world will it be? It’s certainly not going to be the same as it is this year. We do know that, but can we make it better or is it going to be worse?



RIC THOMPSON: That’s some great thought-provoking stuff, but it begs the question: How do we prepare?



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To learn more about Marie D. Jones and her work, go to www.MarieDJones.com.